Can Do: Banking, Ubuntu and turning hardship into impact | The bizval podcast with Kevin Chaplin

TRANSCRIPT: THE bizval PODCAST
Guest: Kevin Chaplin, Founder — SA Ubuntu Foundation | Managing Director — Amy Foundation | Author — Can Do! Making the Impossible Possible
Host: Graham Stephen, CEO and Co-Founder, bizval
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-chaplin-2a89a58/
SA Ubuntu Foundation: https://saubuntu.org.za
Amy Foundation: https://amyfoundation.co.za
Book: https://saubuntu.org.za/can-do/

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[00:01:03] Graham Stephen: My guest today is exactly that person. He spent 26 years in banking and reached the very top of it, and then he walked away to build two organisations that have literally changed thousands of lives. He is the founder of the SA Ubuntu Foundation, the managing director of the Amy Foundation, and a public speaker who has shared stages with some remarkable people. He is also the author of the book Can Do! Making the Impossible Possible. Kevin Chaplin, welcome to the show.

[00:01:37] Kevin Chaplin: Thank you, Graham. It is so good to be with you, and hello to everybody.

[00:01:43] Graham Stephen: Fantastic. Well, I want to be upfront with our listeners. I read your book cover to cover and it really moved me. So today is a little bit selfish in a sense, because I get to ask you some of the questions the book left me with. But let us start with your backstory, Kevin. What shaped your life so far? It is not a straight line. Can you give our listeners the quick version? Where do you come from, and how does a boy with humble beginnings end up running two foundations, not just foundations, but really impactful and values-driven foundations?

[00:02:27] Kevin Chaplin: Thanks, Graham. I think it really starts with family. My father was a very insecure, emotionally illiterate person. He had a very high IQ but no emotional intelligence. But my mother was a very strong woman and she realised early on that she needed to surround me with other good male and female role models. So it started with my grandparents. I spent a lot of time with her father, which moulded me, and with her brothers and sisters. And strangely enough, even though my father was like that, his brothers were the opposite. So I also spent a lot of time with them, and that really channelled who I became. I have always believed that role models and mentors are very important.

[00:03:27] Kevin Chaplin: And then, whilst my parents were not churchgoing once they had children, they were heavily involved in their church before they had kids. I do not know why, but they did take us to Sunday school every Sunday. And I think that from an early age gave me God in my life, and I was able to learn how to pray and look to God as my anchor going forward. So those two areas started me off on my journey and became my philosophy: that I just wanted to make a difference, for God to use me, to be his hands and feet. It was not always like that. I was a normal teenager. We were going to parties, drinking too much, getting ill the next day. But my work ethic was very strong. And as I grew older, God became more and more a force in my life.

[00:05:25] Graham Stephen: Fantastic. So Kevin, a lot of your backstory is in the book, and I am going to encourage listeners to go out and get a copy. All the proceeds go towards the Amy Foundation and the SA Ubuntu Foundation, so it is for a genuine good cause. We will touch on that just now. But just give us the quick rundown of your CV, so to speak. How did you get into banking? How did a boy from KZN end up in Joburg and then Cape Town?

[00:06:00] Kevin Chaplin: So interestingly, once I got to matric, I wanted to go to hotel school. I wanted to be in the hotel industry. But then I got a July call-up. All white males at that time had to go to the defence force, and I was given the Navy. So what was I going to do for six months? I joined the bank and ended up really enjoying it. And whilst you are away for two years they pay you a small salary. In those days it was 48 rand a month, and my salary at the time when I joined was 384 rand per month. That is what I earned, and I was able to pay rent to my parents, pay off a car, cover petrol, go out, and I had a small insurance policy, all for 384 rand a month. I loved the Navy, trained to do electronic warfare, which was Morse code.

[00:07:08] Kevin Chaplin: What I decided to do was study the banking exams during that time, and I think that gave an indication to the bank that I was serious about a career. I came out and went back to the bank and continued studying. I then applied to do a BCom. My parents could not afford to send me to university, so I applied for a bursary from the bank. The first year I was declined. It was the first year they had ever offered banking staff a bursary, and the people selected were those who had been in the bank ten years longer than me. So I got it the second year. I studied through UNISA, a BCom in accounting and business economics, finished all my banking qualifications, and really just worked hard. I built a career doing everything from the most junior job right through.

[00:08:21] Kevin Chaplin: And then I got a lucky break and was offered the national industrial relations manager for FNB for the group, which meant moving to Joburg. People said, oh, you are going to hate Joburg, but I just believe: wherever you go, make the most of it. We spent ten lovely years in Johannesburg. It was the most rewarding time of my career. I then moved into human resources and then got a really good break as the HR, finance and admin director for FNB’s Johannesburg business sector nationally, and really grew so much in that time. I had a boss who was such an inspiring Christian and who made me bolder for God.

[00:09:17] Kevin Chaplin: In the year 2000, RMB bought FNB and we became First Rand. I had to retrench quite a lot of people and I thought, okay, time to get out of HR. But then I was very blessed to become the sales and service director in Cape Town. They actually offered me Durban and I said no, I have moved on now, I want to go to Cape Town. And so I came to Cape Town in 2000 as sales and service director. It was really one of the best times because the RMB influence had enabled the sales and service directors to run the business almost entrepreneurially. And then I became the provincial manager for the Western Cape.

[00:10:10] Kevin Chaplin: And then I thought, okay, I am 41. What does God want me to do next? And so I really prayed hard, Graham, Jeremiah 29: I have a plan for you, a plan to prosper, not to harm you. The opportunities took quite different turns where I thought that is the one, and then it was not. And so eventually I decided to start the South African Ubuntu Foundation.

[00:10:48] Graham Stephen: Yeah, I think what is quite clear is that your life was not linear, but you were constantly open to opportunities. You were open to listening to where that voice took you, if you want to call it that. You did not have a grand plan of your own, like, I am going to be the CEO of the biggest organisation in the world. You actually humbled yourself and went where you were needed as opposed to where you wanted to be. And that comes through in the book. I just want to draw on the book for one more second. It took you seven years to write it, and I guess it is a memoir of your personal and corporate challenges and highlights. But why did you write it, and who did you write it for?

[00:12:04] Kevin Chaplin: So by that time I was being invited to speak at lots of events as a motivational speaker. Even in the bank I was asked to speak at corporates and conferences. And every now and again a waiter would come and say, thank you, I have learned so much from you. Where can I read more? And I thought, maybe it would be good to write a book one day, because why should we die one day having taken all of our experiences, challenges and lessons to the grave when we should be sharing them with others?

[00:12:48] Kevin Chaplin: And then at one of my Ubuntu business breakfasts, a lady called Toby came up to me and said, you have got to write a book, and I am a ghost writer, I will help you put it into a book format. So we started. She would sit with me and I would share, and then she would write it up and send it to me. I would say, no, I do not talk like that, that is not what I meant. And there was a lot of back and forth. But because I was so busy, she would do something within a few days and it would take me six weeks to get to it. That is why it took seven years.

[00:13:32] Kevin Chaplin: And then we got to the point where we were almost ready, and the landlord who had given me free rental, free rates and taxes for my offices for the foundation had to tell us we needed to vacate in a month’s time. I said, no ways, that is impossible. So I phoned Toby and said, we have got to put this on hold. I now have to save the foundation. I have a month to find premises. And then I found premises and built a new youth skills centre costing 8.6 million rand, which took about 18 months to two years. Once we moved into the new premises I said, let us get going again and finish the book.

[00:14:39] Kevin Chaplin: But guess what happened next? I had industrial action at the Amy Foundation. One troublemaker, very politically motivated, who wanted to take over the beautiful new building we had spent 8.6 million on. So this all erupted, which was an unbelievable trauma. I phoned again and said, sorry, put it all on hold. I have now got to sort this out. Luckily that only took four months. Then we finished and published it. But then COVID came and that put it on hold again. So I am delighted for people to read it because I have written it in an easy style. Every page has got a lesson, a learning, an insight, so that every reader can take something away.

[00:15:55] Graham Stephen: And I think those stories are very relatable. You can read it cover to cover or pick a section. I really encourage anybody listening to go to saubuntu.org.za and you can find a link to the book there. We will leave that link in the comments as well.

[00:16:17] Graham Stephen: So Kevin, I want to just talk a little bit about something that really strikes me about you and also about the lessons in the book. You faced real hardship and genuinely difficult circumstances, from some of your upbringing stories through to losing the building at the SA Ubuntu Foundation. But there is not a shred of self-pity or wallowing in the past. You have taken that and turned it into impact, into healing and restoration. Maybe just talk to me about one moment which has probably been the most challenging thing for you in the last 20 years, and how you turned that around into a positive.

[00:17:05] Kevin Chaplin: So I think there are actually three. The first is that because my father was so emotionally immature, he was really cruel to me. He made no bones about it that he resented me, because he was obsessed with my mother and wanted her to himself, and I was taking away the full attention he wanted. He would beat me every day. But luckily, as I said earlier, my mother was very wise. She ensured I spent so much time with my grandfather, my uncles, my aunts, and we had good neighbours. And so one of my aunts whispered to me one day, listen, you are not the problem. He is the problem. Do not stress about that.

[00:18:07] Kevin Chaplin: But it taught me never to blame your past on your present. Do not keep that chip on your shoulder. Move forward, and if it is to be, it is up to me. I must go out there and make it happen. I cannot rely on anybody else. So I think those were really hard times as a young boy, but I had the support, and it channelled my mentality: be positive, pick yourself up, go forward and just make it happen.

[00:19:03] Graham Stephen: Fantastic. And I think you talk about in the book that even though you had those struggles with your dad growing up, much later in life you made peace and forgave him, and you had a period, probably too short, where you managed to reconcile and the two of you found each other again. That brought tears to my eyes when I read that part of the book. And I think in business as well, you can bear a grudge, or you can ask, how do I learn from this? How do I get better? How do I create more impact? Those lessons are universal.

[00:20:03] Kevin Chaplin: 100%, Graham. Because what it made me also realise, and it came through in all my roles as a leader, is that I had to understand other people. I had to eventually understand why he was like that. And then I actually felt sorry for him. He was losing out on happiness because he was always unhappy. So it taught me, as my staff often say, you have got friends with some of the strangest people. I say, because I understand them. To you they are strange, but I understand what makes them tick. And I think you go through things in life which can make you stronger and better and enable you to understand others. And then having a 90-year-old lady contact me after she read about that and say, I want to thank you for writing about your father, because I never came to terms with how cruel my mother was. Only now by reading your story have I come to accept and realise I was not the problem. That is the only reason I needed to write the book. That she could be helped.

[00:21:31] Graham Stephen: I want to move on a little. At bizval we are obsessed with the difference between price and worth, but value is a word that also talks to values. So I think it is true of people and business. I want to touch on that, Kevin. What are the two or three non-negotiables that you live by, and the lines you do not cross, whatever the deal is on the table, whether it is a work opportunity or something to grow the foundation?

[00:22:11] Kevin Chaplin: I think first of all it is honesty. I have never liked to surround myself with people who are false. I would rather take myself out of a situation if I feel the person is not genuine. So personally, it is being genuine, being honest, being transparent. That is very, very important. I have learned to really try and assess a person or situation and only associate myself with genuine, honest people.

[00:22:51] Kevin Chaplin: And then I think the other one is respect. Respect for one another. I will respect your religion, your belief, your culture, your language, and I expect the same. And I think that is what is missing in the world at the moment. Even in business, in politics, people do not respect one another. They try to force their view on someone. I have tried over the years to be a listener. If it is a business deal, it is about listening to the client. What is it you actually want? Not me forcing, this is what you need, this is the product. Let me listen, let me understand the client. That was for me an important thing in banking. I wanted us to be the best in relationship banking.

[00:23:40] Kevin Chaplin: So another non-negotiable is just being able to build a relationship. It has got to be a win-win. I do not want to, for instance in the nonprofit world, just take donations. I want to be able to give back. There has got to be something we both benefit from.

[00:24:27] Graham Stephen: Absolutely. In the work we do, a lot of businesses are being bought or sold, and at the end of the day the number or the value of the deal is one thing, but actually 90% of deals are about trust, about people, about relationships, about what happens after the deal is done. Unless you construct things on a win-win basis, long-term things do not work out. And I think that is one of the whole philosophies that underpins the idea of Ubuntu. So the whole philosophy of Ubuntu is loosely, I am because we are. Maybe you want to explain that for our listeners?

[00:25:37] Kevin Chaplin: Perfect. At the end of the day, what values are important? We have got to have like-minded values. I always say only do business with, or employ, or work with someone who has the same values as you. That is where for me the essence of Ubuntu lies. What are the values that we have? Do we care about others? Are we in it just for ourselves? Ubuntu, yes, is I am because we are. In class you say, I love that, it is such a rich saying. I am because we are, we are people through other people. And the one I love the most is: I am human because I belong to the human community, and I treat and I respect and I value others accordingly. That is the trick. So often people just say Ubuntu is I am because we are. But there is more to it. We respect and we value and we trust others accordingly. We treat them as we would like to be treated.

[00:27:03] Kevin Chaplin: And so Ubuntu goes deep. It is about trusting others. Ethics and integrity are number one. Respecting each other’s culture, colour, religion, language. Not forcing someone in terms of your views. Building strong credible relationships, strong credible organisations that are transparent. Raymond Ackerman for me was the best example. From when he bought his first two stores at Pick n Pay, he did not wait five years till he had made millions to give back. From month one of making some profit, a little bit went back to the community. And that is what he built the values of Pick n Pay on.

[00:28:11] Kevin Chaplin: Being reliable is also very important. If you say you are going to do something, stick to it. We all have problems and sometimes we cannot deliver what we promised, but have you gone back to the client and said, I know I promised you an answer by 10 this morning, I am not there yet, can you give me another day? I learned early on as a banker: do not make promises you cannot keep.

[00:29:12] Graham Stephen: I love that. So Kevin, I am going to skip forward a little and dive straight into the SA Ubuntu Foundation and the Amy Foundation. You moved down to Cape Town. You turned around the FNB sales unit in the Western Cape, top performing for years in a row. You are at the top of your career, and you walk away to start the SA Ubuntu Foundation. That is a bold move, a step out in faith. Share with us a little bit about the founding of the SA Ubuntu Foundation, what it does, and how anyone listening can get involved.

[00:30:11] Kevin Chaplin: I would like to just touch briefly on how we turned things around in four years. First of all, it was surrounding myself with the right people. I appointed people who in some cases were better than me, because so many people appoint people who, when you say jump, say how high. I wanted people who could really help us shine as a team. And then creating a culture of openness, engagement, communication, encouragement, but also excellence. Getting everybody to buy into making a difference every day. There is a whole chapter on how we turned it around in the book.

[00:31:24] Kevin Chaplin: So then after 26 years of loving banking, at the age of 41 I decided, what am I going to do next? I was offered a job by the premier of the province to go and run Cape Nature. I thought, yes, that is God’s plan for me. But at the last minute one of his ministers called me and said, I know the premier promised you this job but we have got to withdraw it because you are a white male. And then I thought, okay, I understand it, we cannot keep promoting white males as we have been doing. Then the head of RMB Private Bank resigned and I thought, ah, that is why I did not get that job, I am going to go and run RMB Private Bank. I phoned up and they again said, sorry, sir, you are a white male, the board has taken a decision. And then I was upset. But then again I thought, no, all the senior positions were white males. So I thought, I am going to start something myself.

[00:32:32] Kevin Chaplin: And then I started praying a lot about it. And I realised that God had given me a talent to bring people of different colour, culture, religion and language together. I was normally the only Christian at a Jewish wedding, or at a Muslim birthday party, often being invited to black African homes for dinner. And then a defining moment was when I said to my secretary, whenever I invite clients to an FNB event it is always at a top hotel. Let us do one in Khayelitsha. So we invited all of our clients and every white and coloured client declined, and it was only black African clients. I was shocked. But I had the most amazing evening with a hundred black African business people. And I left there thinking, I have got to do something that gets all colours, religions and languages to embrace one another.

[00:33:36] Kevin Chaplin: So I went to see Archbishop Tutu. I said, Arch, you are a fraud. And he chuckled. He said, what do you mean? I said, Arch, you are telling the world we are the Rainbow Nation, but we are far from it. And I want to do something about it. I spent a year planning it. I do believe people must not just jump ship, they must really plan and focus and then move on. Once I was ready, I gave my boss three months notice, and I started the Ubuntu Foundation, really to bring business people of different colour, culture, religion and language together to embrace one another. So it is activities and interventions that create a climate and an atmosphere for business people to engage, with a bigger focus on being part of the growth in the country, the solutions this country needs, so we can all become economically active and build a country that is growing and prospering.

[00:34:50] Graham Stephen: That is fantastic. And Kevin, practically, how can people get involved?

[00:35:06] Kevin Chaplin: So it is two different organisations. The SA Ubuntu Foundation people should go to our website, saubuntu.org.za, and register to come to our breakfasts. We do ten breakfasts a year in Cape Town, two a year in Joburg that we want to expand to four. They must go on there, sign up for the next breakfast. We have powerful speakers and topics, 100 to 120 business people at every breakfast. They will meet different people, hear a good topic and go forward. We also do quarterly dinners for CEOs, chairpersons and directors around how you can be part of the solution to the country.

[00:36:19] Kevin Chaplin: But another wonderful opportunity, Graham, is for those who cannot attend breakfast or who are not in Cape Town, please sign up as an Ubuntu member. As an Ubuntu member for only 250 rand a month, you get access to all the recordings of the speakers. Years and years of recordings which are really powerful, that you can watch yourself, with your family, with your staff. You also get six free breakfasts a year. If you cannot attend we give your seat to an entrepreneur. And there are prizes and draws and travel discounts and all sorts of benefits. So yes, please sign up, become an Ubuntu member, come to the breakfast, sign up for the pledge. That is how you can get involved.

[00:37:23] Graham Stephen: Fantastic. So I want to talk a little about the Amy Foundation now. Some of our listeners might know what the Amy Foundation is about. Tell us a little bit about it. It has got a fascinating origin story, actually quite a heartbreaking one. Tell our listeners who Amy Biehl was and how you came to lead this organisation, and some of the impact this foundation has made over the last 15 to 20 years.

[00:38:03] Kevin Chaplin: Thank you, Graham. I am really happy to be able to do this because I do believe everybody in the world should know the story of Amy Biehl, which is one of the most powerful stories of Ubuntu. After Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu, Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, the Amy Biehl story is a powerful part of our history.

[00:38:26] Kevin Chaplin: Amy Biehl graduated from Stanford University. She went to work at the White House with Bill Clinton, and in the early 1990s all she saw on television was about Nelson Mandela and she wanted to come and help South Africa. Bill Clinton spoke to Nelson Mandela and she came on a one-year Stanford scholarship. She spent time at UWC with ANC members and she helped write the constitution. She came in August 1992 at the age of 25, helped write the constitution, and then in August 1993 she was starting to educate people to vote in April. Two days before she was due to go home, there was a peaceful political rally happening in the township of Guguletu. Chris Hani had been murdered, there was the St James massacre. The police broke up the rally and a mob formed. This mob was walking down the street. Two of Amy’s black friends from UWC had phoned her and said their taxi had left them. Please could she drop them home? She could not have foreseen what was happening. And when the mob saw her, they went crazy. And that is how she died. Four boys went to jail for her death. They were sentenced to 20 years.

[00:40:07] Kevin Chaplin: In 1997 was the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which is a powerful part of our history, where Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu formed this TRC to bring victim and offender together. Part of it was they asked Amy’s parents to come and meet the four boys. When they came, despite a lot of opposition in America saying how dare you go to that country that killed your daughter, they came, they met the boys, and then they said, my goodness, these are four young 18-year-olds that apartheid robbed of their youth. We forgive them. They asked the government for amnesty and got them released in 1998 after five years in jail. Two of those four boys were so humbled by this act of forgiveness, Graham, that they actually said, we want to meet the parents again, we want to dedicate our lives to the youth. And that is how the Amy Biehl Foundation started in 1998.

[00:41:10] Kevin Chaplin: Fast forward, Amy’s parents and the two boys ran the foundation. But in the early 2000s, Amy’s father died with no medical insurance. He left Amy’s mother penniless. She came to close the Amy Biehl Foundation. But God had a bigger plan. Long story short, I met the mother. I said, please do not close it, Mrs Biehl. She said, I have to, there is no money. I said, okay, I will take it over. She wanted to put it under the Ubuntu Foundation. I said, no, the SA Ubuntu Foundation is for business people, totally different focus. The Amy Foundation is for youth. So that is why I have kept it separate. But everything we do in the Ubuntu Foundation supports the Amy Foundation.

[00:41:49] Kevin Chaplin: I changed the name to the Amy Foundation about 12 years ago, and it was very important that we became a South African organisation while still honouring the legacy of Amy Biehl and her parents’ forgiveness. So it is a powerful story of forgiveness, reconciliation and restorative justice. And I am proud to share that it shows you the good that can come from a tragedy. Today we have seven centres and 2,000 youngsters. When I took over there were ten staff and 100 kids. And now from that youth skills centre, in just the last few years we have placed 2,551 students in employment and started 306 new businesses. Employers tell me, Kevin, I do not want to recruit from anywhere else. I only want Amy Foundation students working for me.

[00:44:06] Graham Stephen: It is absolutely incredible, the amount of grassroots youth skills development, empowerment through education, real tangible skills development. And as you say, it was out of tragedy that this arose. And it is giving back. Giving people hope and opportunity. And that story of restitution and forgiveness is just remarkable. You are not just giving them skills, but you are giving them a value set that they can take into life and hopefully multiply as they go out into the world.

[00:44:06] Kevin Chaplin: Absolutely. And if you see the youngsters that we are producing, it warms my heart. You know, when we were given notice to vacate those premises, everybody said to me, Kevin, give it up. Close the Amy Foundation down. You will never find other premises with no rent. Just close it down. Thank goodness I did not listen to those naysayers. That is why it is called Can Do: making the impossible possible. Thank goodness we did. And those two boys who went to jail still work for us, are wonderful young men now, and the impact we are making with the youngsters just inspires me every day. This is the solution this country needs.

[00:45:18] Graham Stephen: And anybody wanting to get involved can go and check out the foundation online. The Amy Foundation is amyfoundation.co.za and the Ubuntu Foundation is saubuntu.org.za. And they can reach out to Kevin directly at kevin@amyfoundation.co.za.

[00:46:05] Graham Stephen: Kevin, I want to touch on the concept of mentors and then entrepreneurship as a vehicle for change. You have spoken a lot about some of the mentors you have had in your life, from Archbishop Desmond Tutu through to Raymond Ackerman. You have really been in the orbit of some extraordinary people. Maybe just share a little bit about one or two of the mentors who really helped shape you. And also address the question around mentorship, because a lot of people think a mentor is a nice-to-have. Why do you think every single business leader or person should have a mentor?

[00:46:58] Kevin Chaplin: It has definitely shaped me from the early banking days right to where I am now, because I do believe we all need to learn from others. The best education, yes, we must study, we must read, but we must learn from others. From the early banking days, I would see which manager I could learn the most from, ask them questions, never be shy to say, how can I do this, how can I do that? So I think it is important that we all look for mentors that we can learn from, that we can trust, and not be shy to go up to somebody and say, I would love to learn from you, could you consider mentoring me? Many times people are going to say, I just do not have the time to be a formal mentor. But they will say, I am happy to once a month, once every few months, just spend ten minutes with you. You can ask me some questions, bounce some ideas, I will give you some guidance.

[00:48:00] Kevin Chaplin: Philip Krawitz of Cape Union Mart used to sit with me every few months and show me how he runs his stores. The same with Raymond Ackerman. I learned so much from him. They could have said no to me when I asked, will you be my mentor? But they were humble people who just wanted to give of themselves. So I think every business leader should be looking for people to learn from, and for them to teach others, because other people need to learn from us too.

[00:49:03] Graham Stephen: 100%, Kevin. And I think just something to add there is that mentorship on both sides requires people to set their egos aside. In today’s world it is so much about ego, how many followers can I get on TikTok and all of that sort of stuff. But mentorship is at a far deeper, more humane level than that. It requires a setting aside of ego. It is around a mindset and a willingness to learn. And often you think you are going to be somebody’s mentor, and how often these things flip around and you end up learning more from the mentee than what you think you are imparting.

[00:50:00] Kevin Chaplin: Absolutely. And I want to also just share that many times it is just your boss, your immediate boss. I mean, if I think of the bosses I have worked with, they were not all the greatest, but I learned something from each of them. When I first became the industrial relations manager, everybody said, oh my word, you will never get on with your boss, he is the most autocratic man you have ever met. And in the beginning yes, it was a bit difficult. But one day I said, Mr Mo, I do not agree with that. And he went red in the face and said, what do you mean? But I helped change him and we learned a lot together. I always say, so many times I hear people say, I am leaving because I cannot get on with my boss. Have you tried to change your boss? Have you tried to learn? Perceptions are damning. So many people say, ah, he says this about me, I do not agree. Well, if that is a perception, be aware of it and take it into account in how you behave.

[00:51:46] Graham Stephen: I want to end on one last section. At bizval we work with businesses from small all the way up to mid-market private businesses, and one of the things we believe about business is building a healthy business community. When we talk about entrepreneurship, why do you think it is such a powerful vehicle for societal change, and why is it at the heart of what both the Ubuntu Foundation and the Amy Foundation do?

[00:52:39] Kevin Chaplin: If I look at those, apart from the students we place in employment, we have got an entrepreneurship arm where we train students to be entrepreneurs and help set up and grow a business. We started 306 new businesses. Now, you are not only creating income for that one entrepreneur. That one entrepreneur is helping change the dynamics of their family and their community, because now they start employing other people in their community. They bring in income where they can help send one of their siblings to school or university. So it is that ripple effect. One entrepreneur starts employing others, starts creating income for the whole community. To me, it is the real solution. When I grew up, you wanted to join the corporate. Nowadays, there are so many things you can become an entrepreneur in. Start your own business and it definitely changes society. It changes the world.

[00:53:48] Graham Stephen: Absolutely. It is fundamental and it is critical. And some of your mentors were leaders in that space, whether it is the Cape Union Mart guys or Raymond Ackerman. They were entrepreneurs. They took a step out of their corporate lives and created something. And often it is just that first step of faith, being brave enough to go out there and try something, risk failing, bring hope to others, and give dignity to other people.

[00:54:36] Graham Stephen: Kevin, we are going to wrap up and before we do, we do a quick rapid fire section. Just a fun set of five or six questions. Do not overthink it, first answer that comes to mind. Are you ready for the rapid fire?

[00:54:54] Kevin Chaplin: Yes.

[00:54:54] Graham Stephen: One word that describes your younger self.

[00:55:02] Kevin Chaplin: Resilient.

[00:55:02] Graham Stephen: Can’t or won’t. Which one bothers you more when you hear it?

[00:55:11] Kevin Chaplin: Won’t. Because then a person is being stubborn. Yes, I can’t. But you can be encouraged to can. But if a person says I won’t, there is a stubbornness. There is a selfishness there.

[00:55:26] Graham Stephen: Love that. The best piece of advice you were ever given, and who gave it to you?

[00:55:33] Kevin Chaplin: My grandfather. Every day when we saw him he would say, never say die, get up and try. That was his mantra. I have been given lots and lots of advice but that is the one that sticks.

[00:55:49] Graham Stephen: Fantastic. Banking or the not-for-profit world? Which is harder?

[00:55:55] Kevin Chaplin: The not-for-profit world. My wife always says I had more income in the bank for less work, and I work harder in the nonprofit world for less income. But the nonprofit world is more rewarding. You have got to think about how you are going to bring in income. How are you going to make sure you have impact and outcomes? But when you make it transparent and credible and work hard, it all comes together. So it is very rewarding, the hard work.

[00:56:35] Graham Stephen: Fantastic. A book, other than your own, that you think every business leader should read.

[00:56:46] Kevin Chaplin: Raymond Ackerman’s book, The Four Legs of the Table. I keep it right here. The values he built Pick n Pay on, how he started. So, The Four Legs of the Table by Raymond Ackerman.

[00:57:02] Graham Stephen: Fantastic. Ubuntu in three words.

[00:57:07] Kevin Chaplin: Together we can.

[00:57:10] Graham Stephen: Love that. Coffee or a walk when you need to think?

[00:57:14] Kevin Chaplin: A walk, definitely. You have got to balance your life. We work hard but you have got to play hard as well.

[00:57:34] Graham Stephen: And the one trait you look for when you hire?

[00:57:39] Kevin Chaplin: Attitude. If I see somebody walking in for an interview slouching or sitting badly in the chair, I am not going to take them. Attitude is everything. A positive, can-do attitude. They will achieve much more than somebody with a degree who has got a bad attitude. So attitude first, then passion, commitment, and all of that.

[00:58:13] Graham Stephen: Fantastic. If your daughters had to describe you in one word, what would it be?

[00:58:22] Kevin Chaplin: I would say loving. Or maybe caring, because I care deeply about people, and obviously love follows caring.

[00:58:35] Graham Stephen: Finish the sentence. The impossible is possible when…

[00:58:59] Kevin Chaplin: …you believe in yourself. Because you have to believe in yourself to achieve anything. Do not let anybody say you cannot do this, you cannot do that. That is the essence of can-do. Believe in yourself. The impossible is possible when you believe in yourself.

[00:59:24] Graham Stephen: Fantastic, Kevin. I meant it when I said at the start we could probably do two and a half hours of this. But people can go out and buy the book and support the Amy Foundation. As we wrap up, what is one message you would like to leave with our listeners, whether it is a business owner, an associate, or somebody just listening, that they can carry with them tomorrow?

[00:59:56] Kevin Chaplin: Never let anybody say to you, you cannot do this, it is impossible. You can achieve anything you want with the right attitude, with the right people around you, walking the right journey. And you will achieve what you would like to do.

[01:00:12] Graham Stephen: Fantastic. And I am going to say it one more time because I really do think it matters. Kevin’s book is called Can Do! Making the Impossible Possible. It is available via the saubuntu.org.za website and the proceeds support the Amy Foundation. Please go out there, check out the book, reach out to Kevin, check out the SA Ubuntu Foundation. It is a really worthy cause. I have been to a number of the breakfasts and it is a great opportunity to network without any pressure. It is a bunch of like-minded business people coming together wanting to make a difference. Kevin, once again, thank you for your time and your generosity. We really look forward to putting this podcast out there and hopefully having a bigger impact in the world. Thank you, Kevin.

[01:00:59] Kevin Chaplin: Thank you so much, Graham. I really appreciate and value it, and thank you to everybody who listens.

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